Bill, I'm not sure what reference you mean, but we (the biss-awt team) ARE thinking about this (not just MGR, there are some other choices too). That perfectly fits into my plans of implementing a small, shrink-wrapped Java system with publicly available components (for use in turn-key systems, various CDE systems etc.). Any suggestions about the graphics lib to use (MGR, svgalib, Tiny-X etc.)? Peter