lucid at secret.org lucid at secret.org
Wed Mar 12 17:47:30 PST 1997

>OTOH, if it is *performance* rather than expressiveness that leads you
>to pointers, then the JVM will be the limiting factor no matter what
>HLL you use.

Thats it... I am trying to build a realtime data visualization application
and it could really use the preformance boost...

>Maybe you should consider developing a plug-in or an ActiveX in order
>to use C or C++? Maybe Modula-3 would be a good choice since it is
>probably the language most like Java but with references, and is
>widely available for free on many platforms.

I need cross platform, GUI, and networking... Java is the only thing that
really fits the bill right now. Note: I have it working, it would just be
much better if I had pointers/references... I think java is the right
soloution for my product, but I just wish the damn thing ran a bit faster.

>I don't think you are going to get pointers in Java. Java requires a
>programming model more like Smalltalk or Lisp. A lot of great high
>performing software has been developed in these languages, but it is a
>different model from a language that exposes pointers/references.
I just really want more efficient data manipulation... *sigh*

>    lucid>   I still have this wired feeling that java programmers
>    lucid> were intended to be idiots, thus they thought to remove the
>    lucid> burden of anything so troublesome as pointers. Argh!
>It has nothing to do with being idiots. There are entire communities
>of programmers who have been developing software without explicit use
>of references/pointers for over thirty years. We have been very
>effective, thank you.
I _really_ want to make it clear that this is not a gripe against
the people who use the tools... it is a gripe against those
who build the tools... most of this anger is towards the braindamaged
libraries that come in java.* and the justification they use
for not including pointer is my real problem not the lack of pointers.
Example of braindead libraries:  try to load an audio clip that is stored
on a site with a password without letting the user know what the password is.
ie. java sound app that denies the user the ability to save the sound.
I think the flaws I feel exist come from its ITV past, which has a
much more narrowly defined functionality and thusly some of the newer
libraries are horrid the worst of which is the HTTP stuff.

Now back to something related to kaffe:

  >But when there is a legitimate need for
  >references/pointers, another language or language extension is
  >needed. And Java does not have that, and will not for a long time if
  >ever. Choose your tools to fit your needs. Heaven forbid Java should
  >become the only choice for developing software even for the net.
  >Then again, lead the way. Kaffe would be a great sandbox for
  >experimenting with language extensions to Java. Try adding some kind
  >of reference/pointer mechanism. Modula-3 may provide a model
  >Patrick Logan
  >mailto:patrickl at gemstone.com     Voice 503-614-3365
  >Gemstone Systems, Inc            Fax   503-629-8556

I wish I had didnt have so much stuff that needed to be done yesterday
so alas I can only contribute what will also pay the bills... ;-)

I think it would be interesting to create a native lib
java.lang.Pointer or java.lang.Reference to allow for data to be
manipulated quickly... Shame I I dont have more time.

Please forward all non kaffe related flames directly to me so
as not to flood the list....


root at secret.org

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